Foreign Affairs Defence and Trade Committee - Thursday 23rd October

Senator LUDLAM-My questions go to 1.1.10, Security, nuclear disarmament and non-proliferation. I
was hoping to speak to someone in the Australian Safeguards and Non-Proliferation Office.

Senator Faulkner-Yes, you can start.

Senator LUDLAM-Am I addressing the questions to Mr Carlson?

Mr Carlson-Yes.
Senator LUDLAM-Are you confident that Australian uranium sold overseas will never end up in nuclear
weapons?

Mr Carlson-Yes, I am confident.

Senator LUDLAM-Are you 100 per cent confident? What is your degree of confidence and your reason
for such a high degree?

Mr Carlson-I have not tried to quantify my confidence. Confidence is a judgement rather than a
mathematical formula. My confidence is based on the nature of our agreements, the nature of the international safeguard system, the non-proliferation system more broadly and our relations with the governments with whom we deal in facilitating uranium transfer.

Senator LUDLAM-Just to clarify, does your office perform inspections of nuclear facilities overseas or
do you leave that to other agencies?

Mr Carlson-We do not carry out inspections.

Senator LUDLAM-You are relying for your confidence on other agencies, such as the International
Atomic Energy Agency, for example?

Mr Carlson-Yes. The International Atomic Energy Agency performs inspections when required, but we
do not rely wholly on inspections. As I said before, we look at a range of factors: the nature of the nonproliferation regime in general, our relations with governments concerned and our understanding of their policies, practices and so on.

Senator LUDLAM-It sounds like a degree of trust is involved.

Mr Carlson-Yes, there certainly is.

Senator LUDLAM-A high degree of trust?

Mr Carlson-A degree of trust which is appropriate in international relations.

Senator LUDLAM-Does your office or perhaps DFAT more broadly consider that the threat to use
nuclear weapons by one of our trading partners should disqualify that country from receipt of Australian uranium?

Mr Carlson-That is a hypothetical question. We are not aware of any such threat. If there were such a
threat, no doubt the government would want to consider that.

Senator LUDLAM-Would you be providing advice to the government in such a case? I am aware of
instances in which Chinese and Russian officials, at the very least, have threatened first use of nuclear weapons. Do you provide advice to government in those instances about the wisdom or advisability of continuing to supply uranium to them?

Mr Carlson-For a start, we are getting into a discussion about what is a threat and what is a statement of longstanding nuclear doctrine by those governments. As much as we might regret the existence of nuclear weapons, they do exist and the governments that have them have articulated policies in the context of which those nuclear weapons might be used. I think the government's response in this situation is demonstrated by the establishment of the International Commission on Nuclear Non-Proliferation and Disarmament to try to further progress the cause of nuclear disarmament. Returning to your question, if there was a threat a number of people would be consulted. I would be one of a number of people who would be consulted by the government for advice.

Senator LUDLAM-I will not ask you to speak on behalf of another agency, but what level of threat to use nuclear weapons is your office willing to accept in recommending continued sale of Australian uranium?

Mr Carlson-That is not really for my office to make those judgements on what is a level of threat.

Senator LUDLAM-I would have thought that your office is precisely where that expertise resides.

Mr Carlson-We can help in interpreting whether statements made represent threats or simply articulation of existing policies.

Senator LUDLAM-I would draw your attention to chapter 5 of the ALP national platform, to only sell
uranium to states that are observing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. I wonder if I can get your thoughts on article 4 of that treaty in particular, which requires nuclear weapon states that are signatories to that treaty to disarm.

Mr Carlson-Do you mean article 6?

Senator LUDLAM-I thought it was article 4, but I stand corrected. You are the expert in the field. Did all of the countries have disarmament obligations under the non-proliferation treaty? Obviously that is not occurring in all of those instances. These countries are, in fact, modernising and improving their nuclear weapons and arsenals.

Senator Faulkner-A lot of the questions are omnibus to officials, but questions about the Labor Party's national platform, if you wish to pursue those in some way-and I do not know that Senate estimates is necessarily the most appropriate forum-are better directed to me than officials.

Senator LUDLAM-I was not calling the policy into question. It was the fact that the Australiangovernment holds the policy that we will not sell uranium to people who are in breach.

Senator Faulkner-You have made that contextual to a party-political issue and I am just making the point that we must frame our questions such that we do not in any way make officials feel that they are compromised in responding. Understanding that, Mr Carlson may care to perhaps ignore just that small element of your question, and then move to the substantive part that does not mean that he is engaging in the political debate. Would you care to rephrase your question?

Senator LUDLAM-I will rephrase the question. The nuclear weapon states that are signed up to the nonproliferation treaty are obliged to disarm and the Australian government does not sell uranium to countries that have not signed up to the non-proliferation treaty. What are your views on countries that are clearly in breach of their obligations to pursue disarmament under that treaty?

Mr Carlson-Firstly, let me clarify that the non-proliferation treaty itself is not precise on the nature of the obligation to disarm. Article 6 talks about all parties, not simply the nuclear weapons states, engaging in negotiations for the purpose of nuclear disarmament. Also, all parties are required to enter into negotiations for a verifiable general treaty of disarmament. These are very ambitious goals and it is clear that the NPT envisages there would be one or more separate treaties to progress those matters. As it happens, the major nuclear weapons states, the United States and Russia, have made substantial progress in reducing warhead numbers. Obviously Australia would encourage that that process continue towards much deeper cuts. This comes back to, amongst other initiatives, the establishment of the international commission that I mentioned.

Senator LUDLAM-Are you intending to be at the Australian Nuclear Association event in Sydney on the
24th?

Mr Carlson-Yes, I am.
Senator LUDLAM-I believe congratulations are in order; you are due to accept the ANA's annual award. Was that the purpose of your attendance?

Mr Carlson-Yes. Thank you for your congratulations.

Senator LUDLAM-I am just wondering whether you consider it appropriate for a director-general of a
statutory authority to be accepting awards from a lobby group.

Mr Carlson-I would disagree with you that it is a lobby group.

Senator LUDLAM-How would you describe the ANA's activities?

Mr Carlson-A professional association. Their activities include enhancing public understanding of
nuclear issues.

Senator LUDLAM-That is also the role of lobby groups. Do you deny that they undertake lobbying
activities in Parliament House and elsewhere?

Mr Carlson-I am not aware whether they undertake lobbying activities in Parliament House. I will not
enter into a dispute with you about that. I think you need to distinguish between the activities of individuals and the activities of the association. I am certainly not aware that the association as such has conducted lobbying as such. Be that as it may, I think it is a good thing that a nuclear organisation recognises the importance of non-proliferation and disarmament and it is in that spirit that I am happy to accept the award.