ENVIRONMENT, COMMUNICATIONS AND THE ARTS

 

Senator LUDLAM-Thanks, Chair. I might just pick up where Senator Wortley left off. In terms of the changes that were made to Radio National programming last year, on 16 October last year after those program changes the Senate passed a motion, which I can provide to you if that would help, calling on the ABC management to publicly reveal any criticisms that had been made against that programming and to make public the reasons for that programming decision. Did anything ever come of that? Mr Scott-Can I say just two things about that, Senator. We were never formally notified of any request for information by the Senate. I am not quite sure what the processes are on that.

Senator LUDLAM-That is interesting.

Mr Scott-But I can tell you that the previous day, on 15 October, we had provided detailed reasons for the changes in a media release, and on the following day, 17 October, I held a press conference here with the minister, where I was asked questions in detail on the changes to the Radio National schedule, and at a press conference here I outlined the reasons for those changes. I have subsequently made a number of other public statements on it, and even the issues of how many letters of concern were forwarded to the ABC, around a range of issues, I must say, related to Radio National. We have provided, and we will in future be providing, detail of the volume of correspondence.

Senator LUDLAM-Were you a bit surprised by the reaction, particularly with the axing of The Religion Report?

Mr Scott-Senator, the changes to programming sometimes trigger strong response. I remember when I started in the role there was a similar volume of response, I recall, to the axing of The Glass House by ABC Television, to be replaced by The Chaser. That was, in hindsight, I think, a strong and positive programming move by ABC Television, but programs have their fans and programs have their supporters. I would say on The Religion Report that I had a very profitable and productive discussion with Reverend Gregor Henderson, who is President of the Uniting Church in Australia, and a number of other religious leaders, where they articulated their concerns to me about what they perceived might be a gap in religious content in the ABC schedule. I was pleased to be able to point out to them that the ABC will still be broadcasting two and a half hours of religious programming through our radio schedules on local and national networks.
The Compass program that covers issues of religion and ethics is now in its 21st year, about to commemorate its 21st birthday. We are committed to covering these issues, but I do not necessarily think, as I think I have indicated to you previously, that the only way you demonstrate your commitment is by having a half-hour program on Radio National. I expect there will be other programs like Background Briefing, Four Corners, The 7.30 Report, Lateline-a range of others-that will cover issues related to religion in modern Australian life. If we feel that there is a gap as we review our schedule over time then we will make adjustments accordingly, as we have done in the past.

Senator LUDLAM-So what has left in terms of programming on Radio National where you might discuss religious issues?

Mr Scott-We have Encounter, The Spirit of Things, The Rhythm Divine, John Cleary's Sunday night program on ABC local radio, religious programming on ABC Classic FM, and, of course, delivering the biggest audience of all week in, week out we have Compass on ABC television, which we show in prime time. But there is nothing to suggest that many of our leading news and current affairs programs will not cover religious issues. On the very important contemporary issue a year or so ago about whether, in fact, Muslim schools should be established in south-west Sydney I recall Four Corners doing a very interesting program on that, which, again, takes that issue to a very, very significant audience. So it is not a case of either you do it on Radio National or you do not do it at all.
The ABC has had debates with Senator Bob Brown on this. The ABC once ran an environment program in a half-hour slot on Radio National. I do not think anyone can seriously say that the ABC does not cover environmental issues with great depth and great breadth across news, television radio and online, and there are many opportunities for us to address these issues beyond the narrowness of one program on the Radio National schedule.

Senator LUDLAM-Sure. But I think as you mentioned earlier, Radio National does have a fierce and fairly loyal audience.

Mr Scott-They do, and we respect that, and we like the fact that they are fierce and loyal, and we engage with our audiences on this, and we will continue to review over time.

Senator LUDLAM-Is there the intention to maintain the specialist content units-

Mr Scott-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-of which the religion unit is one?

Mr Scott-We have no intention to move away from specialist programming or to move away from specialist programming units, and there is still the specialist religious programming unit.

Senator LUDLAM-Did the staff of that unit write to you recently expressing their concerns about a gap in coverage of religious-

Mr Scott-I do not necessarily recall. I had a number of discussions. I had a very productive discussion with a senior representative group of Radio National staff at the time. I think it ran for an hour and a half or so. I held a meeting recently with senior figures from the ABC science unit, discussing the issue of specialisation. The religious affairs unit may well have written to me. I would have to check on that.

Senator LUDLAM-What will your process be for deciding, as you mentioned before, if there is acknowledged to be a gap? Then you would reconsider?

Mr Scott-It is what we do all the time. We look at our resources, we look at our array of offerings. This is what our program managers, our station managers, are paid to do and they do it very well. So we will review and consider over time. I think our feeling on environment coverage is that if you take the environment report away there is still very significant environment coverage, and we can point to numerous examples. If we cannot find those examples of religious programming being aired in other outlets on the ABC, then when we come to review the Radio National schedule again for 2010 we will take that into account.

Senator LUDLAM-Are the specialist units funded separately out of your budget? Do they have separate allocations?

Mr Scott-No, they are funded out of the Radio National division.

Senator LUDLAM-So is there any way for us to know whether the funding or resourcing of those units is going up or down over time?

Mr Scott-I would have to check. It is really carried within those radio division budgets, and they are not released, appropriately. But I have told you, Senator, that we do have a commitment to specialisation. We are committed to that. It is very important, it is very distinctive, it is something only the ABC can do, and I think it is increasingly important in this era when there is so much media choice to have some depth and specialisation.

Senator LUDLAM-What specialist program units remain in the ABC?

Mr Scott-I would have to get the detail of that, but there is certainly religion and science, and others too, but I do not have the list here.

Senator LUDLAM-Is it possible for you to provide those to us?

Mr Scott-Yes, of course.

Senator LUDLAM-I presume that is public information?

Mr Scott-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-A question on the program In Conversation. What was the rationale for that?

Mr Scott-I do not want to speak on programs specifically, but let me speak about programs generally.

Senator LUDLAM-If you could add some comments on that one in particular, I am interested in it.

Mr Scott-Fine. Let me come to you and provide you with some detail on that. These choices were made having made an assessment of how long they had been on air, how distinctive they were and whether there was other programming that was covering similar ground but also, importantly, whether there other things that we thought could be beneficial to our audience that was a more effective use of the resources we have available. We have not cut the radio budget, but I can assure you, there has not been more money made available to radio over the last 20 years to fund the expansion of our services the way our audience wants to expand them. So this is a case of finite resources and our audience having legitimate expectations of further services that they want us to provide.

Senator LUDLAM-Have you proposed an expansion of funding in the current submissions for radio?

Mr Scott-I am not in a position to go into detail around the triennial funding bid of the ABC, but suffice it to say there are three discrete elements to it. One is on new initiatives we want to launch which we think would be beneficial; the second one is for operational money for our current services, because the ABC has suffered significant real funding declines over the past 20 years; and the third one is for the capital that we need to transform ourselves continually into a digital broadcaster.

Senator LUDLAM-If I could go to some broader questions-and I am not sure whether to direct these to you or to the minister, but I expect you will let me know-a large number of people nominated to be part of the ABC board last year in response to the advertisements that were placed outlining the board criteria. Can you let us know when the panel's process is expected to be complete?

Senator Conroy-If I could briefly outline the process, advertisements calling for expressions of interest were placed in the national and metropolitan press as well as leading regional and ethnic papers during the period 17 to 30 October. Applications closed on 7 November. They were assessed against the selection criteria by the independent nomination panel, which provided the government with a report of candidates suitable for appointment on 19 January of this year. The government is currently considering the report and it is expected that the successful candidates will be appointed by the Governor-General very shortly.

Senator LUDLAM-Does very shortly mean days or weeks? Months?

Senator Conroy-Imminent.

Senator LUDLAM-Within weeks?

Senator Conroy-Yes, I would say within weeks.

Senator LUDLAM-I understand there has been a process-correct me if I am wrong-in formally having Nolan rules for board nomination and selection processes made a part of your selection for the board.

Senator Conroy-Yes. We have followed the guidelines, which I think we outlined, and the whole process has followed those principles. They are not identical. I think Senator Birmingham often calls them the Nolan-Conroy principles because there are some variations. I am doing well-I have my own process, my own airport tarmac. I am having a good morning.

Senator BIRMINGHAM-You are getting lots of things named after you.

Senator Conroy-I am having a very good morning. No doubt I will have my own internet filtering soon.

Senator LUDLAM-We will get to that.

Senator Conroy-So we have followed that process. An independent process was set up. The head of Prime Minister and Cabinet recommended the establishment of a panel independent of me. That panel then met separately. I think I had one conversation with the chairman just to say hello. He outlined to me the process they were going to undertake. They employed a company to help them sift through the initial expressions of interest. Ford Kelly Executive Connection, I think it was. That panel then recommended, and I think I received, seven names. I will confirm that exact number. I think it was seven names for the two ABC positions, but I will confirm that in a second.

Senator LUDLAM-Thank you.

Senator Conroy-Seven for each.

Senator LUDLAM-Seven for each. Of two?

Senator Conroy-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-Will that be made the official standard here too for board selection processes?

Senator Conroy-Yes, that is our ongoing process and we are looking at-well, we do not need to legislate it.

Senator LUDLAM-That was my next question.

Senator Conroy-We are keen to ensure that we maintain that independent process.

Senator LUDLAM-So you do not need to legislate that?

Senator Conroy-No.

Senator LUDLAM-That is a matter of policy?

Senator Conroy-Yes, it is our policy that we would like to set it in concrete so that that process can help depoliticise the selection process for the ABC. Clearly, as I think you indicated, hundreds of people applied. That is far wider than the former Prime Minister's Christmas card list, particularly by the end of his prime ministership. So we intend to legislate that, and it will just go through the normal processes. We have a number of priorities at the moment in terms of passing-

Senator LUDLAM-So you do intend to legislate?

Senator Conroy-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-Can you tell us where the staff elected director position fits in with that process?

Senator Conroy-That is separate from that process. We indicated as a separate election commitment we would be reintroducing that. The timing of that is simply on the basis of drafting and putting through the processes. The government has a number of key priorities, including industrial relations legislation, the stimulus package and a range of other priorities that are ahead of that process on the list at the moment, but we anticipate that the legislation will be introduced some time this year.

Senator LUDLAM-But from your point of view as the minister with carriage of that, how much priority do you see that-

Senator Conroy-I think it is important. I did note a particular report that said we had put it on the backburner. It is not on the backburner. What we have clearly said is that the government as a whole has key priorities. We have a limited number of parliamentary draftspersons and we are simply working our way through our legislative backlog. In the first six or eight months of our parliamentary term-as you would be aware, Senator Ludlum, before your arrival the former coalition government had an absolute majority in its own right-we have had a huge backlog of legislation on which we are seeking the support of the Senate. We have had to prioritise that. It is not an unlimited situation. So we are just relentlessly grinding our way through.
All 30 ministers have their own pet projects. I have mine. This is one of them. We will be grinding our way through that process to deliver on all of our election commitments.

Senator BIRMINGHAM-Will the staff appointed director be legislated before the end of Mr Newman's term as chairman?

Senator Conroy-That would depend on you, Senator Birmingham. We will be seeking your support. I cannot predict the outcome.

Senator BIRMINGHAM-Will you actually introduce the legislation before the end of Mr Newman's term as chairman?

Senator Conroy-Yes. As I said-

Senator BIRMINGHAM-I am not sure when that is, I would hasten to add.

Senator Conroy-I think he still has a while to serve.

Mr Scott-Three years to go.

Senator Conroy-He has three years to go, so I am confident that the legislation will be introduced. Whether or not you choose to vote for it, Senator Birmingham, will be a test of your support for the public broadcasting principles.

Senator LUDLAM-Is it fair to say-

Senator BIRMINGHAM-That is a very long bow.

Senator Conroy-If I could just come back to Senator Ludlam, whom you did interrupt.

Senator BIRMINGHAM-Sorry, Senator Ludlam.

Senator LUDLAM-That is all right. So it is fair to say that that position will not be included in the current board, that that is still some way off?

Senator Conroy-As I said, we need legislative passage to be able to facilitate that.

Senator LUDLAM-Before it can be restored.

Senator Conroy-As I said, we are keen to do it as fast as we can working through a new government's enormous workload, but we will be introducing the legislation and hoping that it will be passed this year. It is a little out of our hands, as you would know.

Senator LUDLAM-The passage is out of your hands but the introduction certainly is not. Can you just recall for me, though, whether you said that you hoped to introduce that legislation this year?

Senator Conroy-Yes, absolutely.

Senator LUDLAM-Thanks.

Senator LUDLAM-Can you sketch for us the broad outlines of the commercial partnership between the ABC and HarperCollins for the publication of books?

Mr Scott-I can. The ABC underwent a process to look for a publishing and distribution partner for our books business. We went through a formal process and HarperCollins successfully won the right to that business. We believe in the book business and we believe that the ABC has a role in it but that we would benefit from partnering up with a large and experienced publisher to help us in the publishing and distribution parts of the business.
The arrangement that we have with HarperCollins is similar to the arrangements that we have in other parts of the ABC commercial business. In the DVD business we have partnerships with Roadshow and the BBC.
With magazines, we are in partnership with Universal, Haymarket and News Magazines. With ABC Music we are in partnership with Universal. The editorial policies, the ABC Act and promotions guidelines that previously existed will apply to this HarperCollins deal. The ABC maintains full editorial control over the titles and the content. We maintain control of the trademark and the ABC Books' brand, but we are tapping into the clear expertise of HarperCollins, being one of the world's largest publishers, in helping us publish books, distribute them and sell them to the benefit of the ABC.

Senator LUDLAM-What was the reason for changing from your previous publisher, being Allen & Unwin?

Mr Scott-Allen & Unwin had been the distributor of our books. This is a broader agreement than the one that we had with Allen & Unwin. I think Allen & Unwin and other firms were involved in discussions with us around this arrangement. The HarperCollins arrangement involves more of a discussion around the titles that we publish, the authors that we should pursue, the amount of money we should pay for advances and the print runs for the books, a whole range of complexities around the dynamics of the publishing business that go beyond simply taking our books and getting them out into the stores. It is a broader arrangement than the previous distribution arrangement we had with Allen & Unwin, which was an agreement only for a finite period of time that had come to an end anyway.

Senator LUDLAM-What is the period of this agreement?

Mr Scott-This is an open-ended agreement. This is a partnership that we have established which is now ongoing with HarperCollins.

Senator LUDLAM-How is that reviewed? How will you know whether it is working if it is open-ended?

Mr Scott-We will continue to be partners with them in the business. We will continue to look at the performance of our books division over time. What we find on our commercial business, which is the same in retail, and certainly we have found this true in music publishing and DVD, is that we have some contribution to make as far as our content understanding and our expertise in the marketplace. The skills and the crafts involved in industries like book publishing, DVD creation and distribution, or even retail are specialist skills sets that as a public broadcaster we do not necessarily have an abundance of, even though we are pleased that HarperCollins have taken on numbers of our book publishing staff to work with them in this joint arrangement that we have. We believe that we both bring something to this partnership that is beneficial and we will monitor the success of this business over time.

Senator LUDLAM-Is there a formal period of review or does this corporation have this contract in perpetuity?

Mr Scott-No. This is an ongoing contract, but we will have a series of reporting lines and information that will enable us to review the performance business over time and allow us to make adjustments to the operations of the partnership as we see fit over time.

Senator LUDLAM-To what degree are those arrangements being made available to the parliament? For example, are you in a position to release the publishing, distribution and financial contract between ABC Commercial and HarperCollins?

Mr Scott-Some of that material is commercial-in-confidence, but I can take questions on notice about the arrangement.

Senator LUDLAM-I would appreciate an outline of what material will be available to the parliament and what will be subject to commercial-in-confidence.

Mr Scott-I will take that on notice.

Senator LUDLAM-How are revenues generated from this venture going to be shared?

Mr Scott-Again, I will take that on notice to check our confidentiality deals on that.

Senator LUDLAM-Are there any circumstances in which the agreement can be terminated by the ABC?

Mr Scott-I will review the contract and come back to you on that.

Senator LUDLAM-Do the arrangements that you have with HarperCollins oblige the ABC to promote books or other products?

Mr Scott-We have promotional guidelines that have existed on ABC Books and they will continue. Again, I would like to review the terms of the contract and come back to you on notice.

Senator LUDLAM-What are the terms of promotion whereby you would be promoting books published by HarperCollins on the ABC website or elsewhere?

Mr Scott-The books that are available to be promoted on the ABC are not HarperCollins books; they are ABC books. The only books that we would be promoting are books that are promoted under the ABC Books label.

Senator LUDLAM-Are they published and distributed by HarperCollins?

Mr Scott-Yes. It is just like we promote ABC music that is produced and distributed by Universal, or we promote magazines that are produced and distributed in partnership with Haymarket or News Magazines.

Senator LUDLAM-Are you confident that such promotions, announcements or advertisements of a product that is being distributed by a commercial operator are not in breach of your act that prohibits advertising?

Mr Scott-Yes. We have had that legally checked and we believe that we are allowed to promote the products produced by ABC Commercial on air. We have done that for a long period of time and will continue to do that. In my experience, the public is grateful for the opportunity of being able to purchase products linked back to the ABC, to be able to shop in ABC shops and to have that material promoted on air. We have guidelines that exist around that. Those guidelines will apply to ABC books produced under this arrangement, but they do not apply to a range of other products that HarperCollins might produce separate to ABC Books.

Senator LUDLAM-I would expect so. Was the legal advice that you mentioned for these arrangements in general, or did you specifically seek some advice around the arrangement with HarperCollins?

Mr Scott-Our legal team was involved in the negotiation of the contract with HarperCollins, so that would have been factored into this.

Senator LUDLAM-Can you describe the process by which materials are initiated, developed and overseen in their development, and to what degree a project might be initiated by the publisher rather than the ABC?

Mr Scott-The editorial decision making around it still lies with the ABC, but there will clearly be good ideas that come from both sides of the partnership. It is a partnership. HarperCollins are experts in this. This is what they do. This is their core business. They will have ideas around good books, just as we will, and there will be a meeting of minds and a good working relationship around this.

Senator LUDLAM-What is to prevent HarperCollins producing as ABC books or books under the ABC brand books that it might otherwise have decided to publish under another imprint?

Mr Scott-They could do that. Part of our exercising of editorial control would be whether we believe that publication of those books under the ABC imprint is of benefit to the ABC. If they come under the ABC imprint then there is a greater return to the ABC on that. If there are good books that HarperCollins can help us publish to the benefit of the ABC brand then we would welcome that.

Senator LUDLAM-You mentioned that some of your staff had gone across. Can you flesh out what it has meant for staffing within ABC Books?

Mr Scott-I will have to provide you with more detail on that. What I can tell you is that HarperCollins were involved in interviewing and in talks with a number of staff from ABC Books and they have taken them on to work under this joint venture. Some other staff will have been made redundant under this deal, but I can come back to you with the precise details of that.

Senator LUDLAM-I would appreciate that. This might sound a little cheeky, but is there any connection between the ABC board inviting Rupert Murdoch to present the Boyer Lectures and the occasion of handing ABC Books imprints to HarperCollins?

Mr Scott-Absolutely not. Quite frankly, I think that is a strange proposition. We ran a full, detailed, independent, rigorous process around this ABC Books transaction, which had a strong probity element to it as well. No members of the ABC board were involved in the decision making process. The outcome was reported to them. They exercised no influence over it. The invitation made to Mr Murdoch to be a Boyer lecturer has no linkage to it in any way, shape or form.

Senator LUDLAM-With respect to the crossover of digital broadcasting for the community television and radio sector, I am not sure whether there has been any public discussion on this matter. Are you considering partnership arrangements or any assistance in enabling the community sector to access spectrum or equipment?

Mr Scott-The ABC has no formal or even informal relationship with community broadcasters. The question of migration of community broadcasters from the analog to the digital spectrum is not really an issue for the ABC.

Senator Conroy-That is a policy matter for the government.

Senator LUDLAM-I will direct that to you, Minister. Is that something that is under consideration?

Senator Conroy-We have a number of options that we are considering, but at this stage we are not in a position to announce our final decision on it all.

Senator LUDLAM-Is some sort of partnership with the ABC one of the options?

Senator Conroy-As I said, we are considering a range of options. I am not ruling anything in or out. We will make some announcements later in the year.

Senator LUDLAM-There was a question that I put on notice at the last session in October about in-house production of documentary material by the ABC and you have replied that since 2004-05 the ABC has produced around 34 documentary television hours a year in house. Can you tell us how much will be produced in 2008-09?

Mr Scott-I will take that on notice. The vast majority, if not all, of our documentaries are now being done in partnership as co-productions. The ABC is still committed to a mix of internal and external production, but that varies according to different genres. Our most successful documentaries in recent years, in terms of audience connection, have been documentaries that we have produced in partnership with Film Australia, which have been very successful. Mr Dalton, the Director of Television, gave a speech last week in which he indicated a very significant increase in the levels of documentaries that we will be showing on ABC Television in the coming year. We are absolutely committed to the documentary genre, but on the question as to whether they have to be done internally we have been very successful working in partnership with the range of documentary and filmmakers in the independent production sector. I can come back to you on the precise numbers.

Senator LUDLAM-I would appreciate that. Is there research that you have access to or that you might have commissioned that demonstrates that it is more cost effective for the ABC to outsource production?

Mr Scott-Yes. I can talk to that. A lot of the Boston Consulting review that we discussed earlier was to do with internal versus external production. What they suggested to us was that there were a number of major steps that we needed to make to the ABC's television production model in order to make it as efficient and as effective as it should be and to be perhaps at ease as it operates in the independent production sector. A lot of the changes that we are introducing are strategic planning, detailed transfer pricing models, movement to tapering systems, taking advantage of studio automation and the like. They are efforts we are making to make our internal television production as efficient and as effective as it should be. If we cannot do that and we can produce programs in the independent production sector to the standard that we want, then we are wasting taxpayers' money by doing production in house. We want to keep production in house. I believe that there are great values in a mixed model, but we need to ensure that we can do it as efficiently as possible.

Senator LUDLAM-What proportion of the news and current affairs within the various models do you do in house?

Mr Scott-We do 100 per cent in house.

Senator LUDLAM-Why is that?

Mr Scott-Quite frankly, we have more reporters locally, nationally and internationally than anyone else. There is not an independent production sector that is delivering news in the same way as it is delivering drama, documentaries and factual entertainment. That is a capability, and we believe as we improve our efficiency that we can do that work as efficiently as anywhere else and to the quality that we want anywhere else. We believe we have unique in-house specialisation around news and current affairs. The question around the genre like drama is that there is a vibrant marketplace out there that we can use to do drama. We can tap into that marketplace of ideas. Of course, by going to the independent production sector we can leverage our money. The money the ABC invests is added to by the independent production sector and other forms of government funding, so we can put far more drama on the screen by using that model. That certainly does not exist for news. I think it is a totally separate model for news from other areas of television.

Senator LUDLAM-Is part of the thinking the unique production capabilities that the ABC has developed over time, particularly with regard to current affairs and news? Does the need for integrity and independence of the ABC play a significant part in your thinking?

Mr Scott-Yes, but you can achieve the same under a number of different models. When we are commissioning documentaries they are being delivered to the guidelines set down by the ABC in the commissioning process. Our editorial policies and guidelines are achieved. I will give you an example. Andrew Denton has done a number of programs for the ABC. They have been delivered to high standard and specification. Andrew Denton is an independent producer. If Andrew Denton had to be in house, I suspect we may not have been able to put some of those programs to air. But in no way do I think that because he is not full time on the ABC payroll the integrity of that programming has been compromised.