Economics Committee

Resources Division
Ms Marie Taylor, General Manager, Fuels and Uranium Branch
Mr Patrick Davoren, Manager, Radioactive Waste Section, Fuels and Uranium Branch

Senator LUDLAM-These are specifically to Mr Patrick Davoren. I would just like to lead off with a couple of questions. I am interested in the budget and the staffing arrangements for the business unit-or section or however I should describe it-charged with progressing the national radioactive waste dump project.

Mr Davoren-There are two elements to our budget. There are departmental funds which currently support four staff. We also have administered funds in the budget this year. There was a redistribution of $3.8 million into the years 2008-09 and 2009-10, so we have a budget in 2008-09 of roughly $4 million and in 2009-10 of $2.9 million. The major item in that budget would be conducting an EIS into a selected site. Of course, the government has these matters under consideration. At this stage we are unsure of whether we will have a site within the current financial year.

Senator LUDLAM-Understood. But, at this stage, the money budgeted for the EIS is for the 2009-10 financial year?

Mr Davoren-Yes. There were delays under the previous government. I think it is fair to say that we expected to have done an EIS on a preferred site previously.

Senator LUDLAM-Can you tell me: what is the mission statement, or however you would put it, for your section?

Mr Davoren-The section has a number of responsibilities. We are to progress arrangements for the establishment of a radioactive waste management facility-that was under the previous government. That matter is under review. We also have responsibility for administering the former British nuclear test sites in South Australia and managing the process for their eventual return to their traditional owners. We are also involved in work relating to the former Rum Jungle uranium mines in the Northern Territory.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay. All of those activities come within the funds and staffing allocation that you just identified?

Mr Davoren-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-You are aware obviously that the current government's policy is to repeal the Commonwealth Radioactive Waste Management Act 2005. Can you tell us why that has not happened yet?

Dr Boxall-It is under consideration by the government.

Senator LUDLAM-It is under consideration-the repeal?

Dr Boxall-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-Has the delay in the repeal of the act been due to drafting of replacement legislation?

Dr Boxall-No. The government is considering the matter and will make an announcement when it is ready.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay. Can you tell us what process of consultation this is involving?

Ms Taylor-What the government has put on the table is a commitment to repeal the act, but it has also said that it will only do so in the context of taking forward a comprehensive strategy for dealing with the radioactive waste management issue. As you would be aware, we have engaged a consultant, Parsons Brinckerhoff, to provide site investigations in respect of four sites in the Northern Territory. We have actually received a draft report, but we are intending to impose an independent peer review for that report to ensure it is as robust as possible. Until all those steps are taken, the government will not be in a position to respond in terms of a full comprehensive strategy.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay, I understand. So it appears that the PB report that the government commissioned was further review work of the four sites that had been proposed by the Howard government?

Ms Taylor-There is further work identified in terms of peer review of that report, yes.

Senator LUDLAM-I am sorry; that was not quite the question I asked. You had commissioned PB to undertake a study into the four sites that had been proposed by the Howard government?

Ms Taylor-That is correct.

Senator LUDLAM-A draft report of that has been submitted to you?

Ms Taylor-That is correct.

Senator LUDLAM-You have moved that onto peer review. Who are the peers? Who is doing the review?

Ms Taylor-We are just in the final stages of negotiating our contract with the final consultant. It would not be appropriate for me to identify who that consultant is at this point in time until those contract arrangements are settled.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay. Can you tell us when you would be expecting that peer review process to get underway?

Ms Taylor-Very shortly.

Senator LUDLAM-Days or weeks? Hours?

Ms Taylor-In the next few weeks.

Senator LUDLAM-In the next few weeks that will be underway? Is it essentially the case that you are working to identify the site for the national radioactive waste dump, whereupon you will announce that site to the public? Is that correct?

Ms Taylor-That is a matter of government policy and government consideration.

Senator LUDLAM-But you are the folk who are working on it full time. Is that what is occurring?

Senator Carr-Senator, the officers have indicated that that is a matter of government policy. It is not reasonable to press them in that manner.

Senator LUDLAM-Sorry, Minister, I did not realise I was pressing them. The government's policy is, as I am sure you know, that the process would be scientific, transparent, accountable and fair and allow access to appeal mechanisms. There does not appear to be a great deal of that. I cannot speak for the science, having not seen the report, but there is nothing greatly transparent or consultative about this so far that I can identify.

Senator Carr-All I can say to you is that the minister has stated very clearly that the government is not intending to take decisions on the radioactive waste facility without appropriate consultation, including with the relevant state and territory governments and with the Indigenous and local communities. He has made very clear the commitment to repeal the existing legislation, but he does not wish to take piecemeal actions or decisions on the radioactive waste management in the absence of a total package to solve the problem. I think you are aware, Senator, that this is an issue that has been with us now since former Senator Cook moved a very large body of soil from the old CSIRO site in Melbourne and that we have had all over this country ad hoc processes to deal with radioactive waste. The government's intention is to resolve this matter, but it will not do so in a piecemeal manner.

Senator LUDLAM-I certainly was not accusing the process of being piecemeal. Perhaps we should just move on. Would you be in a position to table the draft report that has been provided to you by Parsons Brinckerhoff?

Ms Taylor-Whilst the report is in draft form it would not be appropriate for us to table that.

Senator LUDLAM-When are you expecting a final report, or would that be completed subject to the peer review?

Ms Taylor-Subject to the peer review.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay. Can you tell us how much the consultants were paid to produce that work for the government?

Ms Taylor-The value of the Parsons Brinckerhoff contract was $1.933 million.

Senator LUDLAM-Thank you. Are you able to table the instructions by which you directed PB to undertake that work?

Mr Davoren-Senator, I think the content of that contract actually appeared on the website of the former Department of Education, Science and Training two years ago. There is no secret about what the work involved. It involved extensive biophysical and socioeconomic characterisation of the four sites.

Senator LUDLAM-I suppose I can assume that that work is of a fairly technical, scientific or geotechnical nature. Can you tell us in terms of consultation, has anybody from the department met with traditional owners at Muckaty Station in the Northern Territory in the last six months or so; is that consultation process underway?

Mr Davoren-There have certainly been meetings with the Muckaty people when work commenced at Muckaty Station late last year, and that was the last formal contact with Muckaty traditional owners.

Senator LUDLAM-Could I assume that that is the case for the traditional owners of the other three sites that would have been named in that report?

Mr Davoren-There were consultations with the traditional owners of all those sites through the relevant land councils, and they took place several years ago. There was an offer made to the Central Land Council to consult further if this was required, but we have had no further communication from the CLC on that matter.

Senator LUDLAM-When was the last time there was communication with the CLC?

Mr Davoren-I think it was early last year.

Senator LUDLAM-In 2007?

Mr Davoren-Yes, 2007.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay, so there is no consultation currently occurring with the traditional owners or their representatives in calendar year 2008?

Mr Davoren-There has been no new information to pass on to them.

Senator LUDLAM-Have you received communications from them, either the traditional owners or their representative body?

Mr Davoren-I think there has been some communication with the Northern Land Council over the last 12 months but the consultations occurred mainly in 2005 when the former government announced how it was going to proceed. There were subsequent communications and consultations but very little in the last year.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay, I suppose I am more interested in the current government's approach. I know certainly that the minister has received a lot of communication regarding the highly contested nature of the
Muckaty site at least, on the grounds of lack of consultation, and you have just confirmed that there has not been a great deal of communication this year. Is the department privy to those communications with the minister?

Mr Davoren-Which communications?

Senator LUDLAM-Communications from-I will give you the names in particular. There is a number of family groups, I am sure you would be aware, responsible for landscape under the Muckaty Land Trust-in particular, the Ngapa, the Millway, the Ngarrka, Wantagu and the Yapa Yapa family groups. I have probably mangled the pronunciation. Are you aware of representations within those groups?

Mr Davoren-Yes, we have prepared draft responses to some of those representations, Senator.

Senator LUDLAM-Can you identify for us, perhaps on notice-we will not put you through doing that now-those communications? I am not asking you to table the communications themselves, but the dates and the order in which they were received and transmitted.

Ms Taylor-We would have to take that on notice.

Senator LUDLAM-I understand that, but are you prepared to table that information?

Dr Boxall-No, we are taking it on notice.

Senator LUDLAM-As in you are prepared to do that or-

Dr Boxall-No, we are taking the question on notice and the minister will give you a response through Senator Carr.

Senator LUDLAM-All right; thanks for that. In an estimates hearing on 30 May 2007, Mr Davoren, you testified that the Ngapa traditional owners would receive phased payments that would commence upon acceptance of a nomination of a portion of lands held under the Muckaty Land Trust. Can you tell us how much was budgeted for these payments?

Mr Davoren-Yes, the agreement that was reached with them was a cash amount of $11 million and $1 million in educational and training scholarships. Of the $11 million, $9 million would be going to the main estate clan, which is the Ngapa, and $2 million would be going to the estate clans who had ownership of the access road, and those clans of the Millway and the Ngapa, again. The phased payment involved a payment o $200,000 upon acceptance of a nomination. The nomination of the Ngapa site was accepted by Minister Bishop in September of last year and the payment following that was made early this year.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay, so these are part payments that are just made on an ongoing basis?

Mr Davoren-They are tied to milestones in progressing the facility. Of course, as the project is under review, there have been no further payments.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay; I understand. Who administers those funds once they are paid?

Mr Davoren-The funds go to the Northern Land Council who represents the traditional owners in matters concerning the land. I understand that $200,000 went to the Ngapa clan and was distributed within that clan. The agreement with the Muckaty people is that further payments, if they are made, would go into a charitable trust to be administered by Muckaty traditional owners.

Senator LUDLAM-Can you tell us what your current expectation is for the time line of the return of Australian obligated spent fuel from France and the UK?

Mr Davoren-I think you have asked a question on this, Senator, and got an answer, and I think you also got an answer this morning from Dr Ron Cameron.

Senator LUDLAM-I am asking you, Mr Davoren.

Mr Davoren-Well, I think you have already got that information.

Dr Boxall-We do not have anything further to add.

Mr Davoren-I have nothing further to add to what has been said.

Senator LUDLAM-Chair, I am sorry; I just asked the witness a direct question. I do not-

CHAIR-I think he answered it. He referred you to-

Senator LUDLAM-He referred me to something that someone may have said earlier this morning. I was just wondering-

CHAIR-It was a bit more than someone may have said. It is another answer to a question at estimates and he says he is aware of the question, he is aware of the answer and he is saying he has nothing further to add.
That is a reasonable response, I think.

Senator LUDLAM-I am not attempting to waste the time of the committee or the witness, but there is highly variable information out there as to when Australia is obligated to receive the reprocessed fuel from
France.

Senator Carr-The officer has given you a response. You asked the relevant officer this morning, and the relevant officer gave you an answer. This officer says that he has nothing further to add.

Senator LUDLAM-Is the department working on a particular time line whereby this dump needs to be up and running?

Mr Davoren-The government is considering the matter. We must await the government's decision.
Obviously we would like to have a facility available as soon as possible but the matter is in the hands of the government.

Senator LUDLAM-I suppose those decisions are, but are you not operating on a purely open-ended basis? Do you have a target time frame by which this facility is up and running?

Dr Boxall-We do not have a target that is independent of the government.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay. That does not answer the question, though.

Dr Boxall-It does answer the question.

Senator Carr-Yes it does; very directly.

Senator LUDLAM-Al right. I will leave it there. Thanks, Chair.